Author Topic: So, what's the score?  (Read 2327 times)

Ben Stallings

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2011, 06:13:29 AM »
Didn't mean to imply you're full of it, Tips, just that the statistics you posted did not make sense to me out of context.  Thanks for the link.


tipsrfine

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2011, 04:26:00 PM »
I posted a couple of hours ago and it's gone. No problem Ben. What I had posted earlier was about how the water in a tank will stratify. The water around the thermostat may be 120 degrees, but the lower areas of the tank will be at a much lower temp. The studies I've been seeing tends to show that this problem is mainly associated with electric water heaters.
I found a good link publish by ASHRAE by Janet Stout, America's leading expert on Legionella. I can't post it here, but if you go to google and search Janet Stout residential hot water systems, you will find it pretty easy. After reading it, I think you will agree that this issue is something to be taken seriously, especially in a home that has old or very ill residents.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 12:54:59 PM by tipsrfine »

tipsrfine

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2011, 12:58:19 PM »
I forgot to mention also that OSHA now recommends that domestic hot water heaters be set to 140 f due to this legionella thing. Canada & the UK are well ahead of us on this one.

SLS Construction

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2011, 02:06:29 PM »
Ok Tips, I did some research & OSHA was on top of my list last night, including the CDC...

For OSHA: http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/legionnairesdisease/index.html

There are first of all NO OSHA standards

Lets also remember that their definition is: Domestic water systems are designed to provide cold or heated water for washing, cleaning, consumption, etc. The term "domestic" applies to all non-process water used for lavatories, showers, drinking fountains, etc., in commercial, residential, and industrial settings. You have to remember that OSHA writes this stuff for commercial & industrial facilities where you would probably choke on how water is handled as compared to a regular house

Most cases I know of,or heard of, were actually caused via the HVAC and other associated systems - drinking fountains I know where a hot topic for a while also

While they did one report & have all sorts of suggestions for where outbreaks occored & ideas for preventing it, they also recomended running it non stop with a hot water recirculating pump, and chlorinating / using biocides a few times a year - are you selling this to your customers?

With that said, they also point out that - L. pneumophila bacteria are widely distributed in water systems. They tend to grow in biofilms or slime on the surfaces of lakes, rivers and streams, and they are not eradicated by the chlorination used to purify domestic water systems. (Gees, where's the EPA when you need them)

If I was concerned about this, I would probably recomend a UV filter before I would even suggest running water heaters at above 140 degrees,much less going putting a constant recirculating pump in. Oh and of course following the recomended maintenance, etc... Based on the cause and how it spreads, you would quickly see that the issue isn't in the house, but lack of backflow preventers & monitoring of the actual water source - maybe this is another item where we would be better to foccus on the real issue before jumping in saying we are here to kill you with our energy efficiency standards. Just a thought

tipsrfine

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2011, 06:05:51 PM »
Hey SLS, in my opinion, if you spent less time playing "devils advocate" to my idea, you would see that I am right on the mark with my assertions. Before I waste any more of my time with your assertions, I would like you to read & comment on Janet Stout's article on legionella & domestic water heater systems. After all, she is the leading expert on the subject in America; it's one thing to smugly attack my assertions, but it's another thing entirely to attack hers. Here are a few links to help you on your way to enlightenment on this subject.
http://www.grayenvironmental.com/Legionnaires_Disease.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/06/12/science/legionnaires-disease-cases-tied-to-showers.html

and here is the pdf from ASHRAE with Janet Stouts article on legionella in residential hot water systems:

I don't know what your problem is SLS, attacking my assertions without doing your homework. This is a very real health threat to certain homeowners and you are not helping getting the word out. Real people are dying as a result of the ignorance of professionals; maybe not a whole lot of people, but real people nevertheless. Maybe one of your customers some day, due to your obstinance to being receptive to new & developing research & scientific studies.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2011, 06:14:27 PM by tipsrfine »

stnick

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2011, 07:21:13 PM »
OK Tips!   You provided some citations.  I read them.  This summary seems to cover it.

Based on these results we conclude the following:
1.Community-acquired Legionnaires’ disease is acquired from exposure to residential water systems more often than previously appreciated.
2. Residential water systems should be investigated as pos- sible sources for sporadic cases of Legionnaires’ disease be- fore implicating cooling towers and aerosol-producing devices.
3.Patients with underlying conditions that increase their risk of contracting Legionnaires’ disease (cancer, immunosup- pressive therapy, advanced age) may benefit from preventive measures to reduce exposure to Legionella within the home. This may include periodic thermal disinfection, point-of-use filtration, or use of boiled water for drinking.


If asked about the potential for a problem, I can now explain a 'Thermal Disinfection'.

Based on my background of 30 years in the health care field dealing with 'at risk' individuals, and the reading you have cited,  I will not be routinely advising about this issue. I will be able to respond accurately if the issue is raised. 

Thanks

John   :)
Efficiency is Not About Changing how People Work!
Efficiency is About Changing how Things Work!

tipsrfine

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2011, 08:24:22 PM »
OK Tips!   You provided some citations.  I read them.  This summary seems to cover it.

Based on these results we conclude the following:
1.Community-acquired Legionnaires’ disease is acquired from exposure to residential water systems more often than previously appreciated.
2. Residential water systems should be investigated as pos- sible sources for sporadic cases of Legionnaires’ disease be- fore implicating cooling towers and aerosol-producing devices.
3.Patients with underlying conditions that increase their risk of contracting Legionnaires’ disease (cancer, immunosup- pressive therapy, advanced age) may benefit from preventive measures to reduce exposure to Legionella within the home. This may include periodic thermal disinfection, point-of-use filtration, or use of boiled water for drinking.


If asked about the potential for a problem, I can now explain a 'Thermal Disinfection'.

Based on my background of 30 years in the health care field dealing with 'at risk' individuals, and the reading you have cited,  I will not be routinely advising about this issue. I will be able to respond accurately if the issue is raised. 

Thanks

Your statement here is tantamount to "despite the advise of America's leading expert on legionelle, I will be disregarding it". I don't care if you won't be routinely advising about this issue. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. People need to be informed about their health risk, even if the numbers of death are relatively small. The odds are very good that, if one of your customers does die from this, you will never know about it. THE FACT IS a certain number of people WILL die from being infected by legionella by their hot water system. What you choose to do with this knowledge is your business. OR ARE YOU TELLING ME NOBODY IS GOING TO DIE AS A RESULT OF BEING INFECTED WITH LEGIONELLA FROM THIER DOMESTIC HOT WATER SYSTEM IN THE USA THIS YEAR, AND THAT THEY COULDN'T BE SAVED BY BEING ADVISED BY THE PERSON PERFORMING THEIR HOME ENERGY AUDIT?
Tell me that, and you guys don't need to worry about me posting here anymore, 'cause your site strike me as a small place that nobody visits anyway. Forget that, I'm out of here anyway. I can't stand closed minded people that dispute facts & knowledge from people who are recognized experts across the world.
By the way Stink, getting away with doing something wrong for years, doesn't make it right.

John   :)

SLS Construction

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2011, 08:39:31 PM »
Tips, let's make something very clear - I am not attacking you & yes I have seen & heard so many of these "the sky is falling" arguments & requests for for more research money / grants it isn't even funny.

As for the the 1990, 1999 & 2004 pieces - not only are they outdated but they basically state the same things I have said. Based on the "foremost expert" --- For example: However, the results are consistent with the message that the overall risk of acquiring this disease from exposure within the home is likely to be low.

Although aerosolization via showering is intuitively attractive, showering has not been shown to be a major disseminator of Legionella (rather it was dehumdifiers, whirpool spas, and dare I say they forgot the dreaded steam shower on older units)

Got to love this FAQ with more updated info on legionalla .org http://www.legionella.org/general_public.htm#13

Sorry, but this is not an issue with us turning their water heaters down or us doing harm

As a big FYI, for individuals with immune compromised systems, etc... one should always ask them about any specifically recomended advice given to them from their doctor

Ben Stallings

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2011, 06:52:32 AM »
It seems to me this is a similar issue to the whole-house humidifiers that are common in this part of the country (lower midwest).  There's a segment of the population -- I don't know how large -- whose immune systems are compromised by dry air, and for these people humidifiers are not just a comfort, they're a health necessity.  Telling them that a whole-house humidifier is wasteful and potentially dangerous would not be a good move.  So I don't do that, and I certainly don't include it in my written recommendations.  I do tell them in passing they could save energy by not using the humidifier, which is true.  They could also save energy by turning down the water heater, unplugging their TVs, using the back porch for refrigeration in the wintertime, and all kinds of things that I'm not going to include in my written report because of course there will be other consequences.  For pity's sake, if we tell them to turn off a light and they trip in the dark, they could sue us.  I think it's a question of just restraining our advice to "this would SAVE ENERGY" or "this would increase SAFETY AND COMFORT" and not "this would be BETTER."

Tips, I hope you don't leave the forum.  Thank you for bringing up the issue.

Bud9051

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Re: So, what's the score?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2011, 10:26:12 AM »
Just a related article that caught my eye.  No reasons given, just the increased number of cases and these are not big numbers.
"State issues Legionnaires' disease alert"
http://www.pressherald.com/news/Legionnaires-disease-maine-infectious-CDC.html

Bud
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